OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Err, please do, sir -- there's always space in the tactics section for discussion I'd love to hear your input on this topic.

Speedplay, glad that you're working things out with twiddling...

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

Should never have said that, ok deal with the gist here.

Easy stuff about standing to receive serve - how they move (if they do) when you relocated.....

However the gist is.... double inverted by looping everything control the spin. A pip player at best merely manipulates it.

When a double inverted player pushes (defensively) then they are in all sorts of trouble because a pip player knows exactly how much spin is on the ball and is freely to do anything with it - and thats alot of things. The thing is the next spin shot is even harder to deal with than the first (reverse or inverted) and their response will trigger another set piece from the pip player. A good pip player is always one step ahead if a double inverted player pushes.

1. For example a double inverted players will refuse to loop a serve that doesn't double bounce, particularly on the backhand. This means the pip player can wind as much spin on the ball as they like and then e.g. reverse spin the return. With side spin the combinations become large, sidespin serve, push, sidespin now reverse spun (and doesn't look at all like sidespin), push, sidespin loop across the table (inverted), push.... reverse spin ... the inverted player can't keep up. The pip player can invert, reverse, float at any time its like playing an endless serve ...

2. What should have happened..... I sidespin serve, opponent backhand loops... I now must chop, chop block and decide whether I'm going to be pushed away from the table.... its a different game.

3. How do I avoid this? By serving with less spin but (trying) to ensure the ball double bounces... service is greatly restricted and spin not as heavy... its all equal. Lots of training ..

In summary you'll seldom catch a double inverted pro-player pushing (with the exception of amazingly good pen-hold players or Waldner) if the ball isn't going to double bounce and there's a good reason for that.

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

When an opponent messes up against reverse spun side spin...

The stroke looks like (is) a chop, but when trying to return it the ball just gets up and flings itself of the side of the table. If they get trapped on the other side of the table, it looks like a chop (sometimes it is of course) and suddenly the ball flings itself off the opposite side of the table.

... deleted

I've edited this post .... don't want a lightside backlash ...

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

Hm. My penhold influences seem to have carried over to when I play offensive shake, as I push pretty frequently and the pips players at my club sure don't like it when I do; I've learned how to keep the ball in a spot where attacking it, with pips or otherwise, would just give me a great setup for attack, since that's what you always have to do with penhold in the short game if you don't have the time/space to move around for a forehand lift.

Unless your opponent is crazy enough to give you a serve that'll go off the table on the left side (assuming right handedness here), in which case you can rip it back with a traditional backhand, or if they send a fast serve and you anticipate it, you can only really punch or push serves to the backhand for single sided pen. Being forced into that situation really makes you learn how to push more intelligently. It's a shame that it's so rare to find euroloop shakehanders capable of adopting that strategy, as it'd do them a world of good.

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Jpen: Galaxy 982 juniper 8mm- Darker Provine Tension-50 2.2 or Tibhar Torpedo Soft 2.2
Shake OFF: Galaxy T8 ST- FH: Darker PT-50 2.2, BH: Juic Varites 1.5
Shake DEF: modified Joo- FH: Reactor Corbor 2.2, BH: Globe 979 1.5

Sure ... but you do lose that tricky wrist as soon as you switch to shakehand I presume? Its extremely difficult to read. At a guess (and its just a guess) I would have thought some of the control is lost as well.

Personally if I learnt penhold (and I really don't understand it) I'd be reluctant to switch, its such an interesting style of play. Penhold players seem capable of any style of play and switching between styles with very little (to me at least) 'tricky' kit. It seems extremely versatile.

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

Well I seem to keep at least a fair amount of it; I learned shake a number of years ago, but only defensive. As a result, I only learned to push well with my forehand side- on the backhand I used long pips. Now, even with inverted on the backhand, I tend to use my footwork (which is pretty darned good if I say so myself, from playing penhold all these years) to get around and push with my forehand side. It's much harder to read than pushes off the backhand, according to clubmates, since a tiny change in the movement can switch the direction or spin.

That is true, though, about penhold players switching more easily to other styles. I have a bit more of an advantage than others though, because as I said before I had some prior experience with shakehand. I still play about 60-70% of the time penhold, and then an even split of the rest of the time for offensive and defensive shakehand. That way I can at the minimum keep my skills up for each style and get a bit better if I have some extra playing time during a week.

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Jpen: Galaxy 982 juniper 8mm- Darker Provine Tension-50 2.2 or Tibhar Torpedo Soft 2.2
Shake OFF: Galaxy T8 ST- FH: Darker PT-50 2.2, BH: Juic Varites 1.5
Shake DEF: modified Joo- FH: Reactor Corbor 2.2, BH: Globe 979 1.5

I think i'm with hobbes here, that doesn't seem to follow what i've seen.

First of all if a pip player knows exactly how much spin is on the ball, then an inverted player should also know exactly how much spin is on the ball. The kind of rubber that you're holding won't give you an advantage over how well you read spin.

Second, if you always know how much spin is on the ball when your opponent pushes, either they haven't developed their pushes and can't vary or disguise the spin, or your ability to read the ball is on par with professionals. No matter which is the case, if you know exactly what's on the ball you can use inverted to loop kill the ball. There's no need to waste time using pips to vary things to push your opponent around, just loop kill and get it over with. That's why professionals won't push a long ball - because they have the opportunity to take initiative and pressure their opponent, and because if they don't take that opportunity they know their opponent will. Whether their opponent has pips or inverted won't make a difference.

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Equipment: Matsushita PowerDefence, Spin Art 1.9 black, Xiying 979 ox red
Style: American | US Rating: barely 2000

Ok last post.

First part.... Don't disagree - its part of double inverted game plan against a double inverted player, viz. serve, wait for the push and (ideally) loop the return. I'm not a double inverted player. A pip player though doesn't need the ball to drop off the table in quite the same way.

Second part... I might have misread this or made an inference too far and I think you might have misread me ... If you are claiming that spin can be easily disguised with a loopers rubber after the serve, or perhaps more accurately a double inverted player readily disguises the spin of a push then I disagree. Good penhold players its an art form, but "Euro-loopers" Trying to use e.g . a Chinese rubber to e.g. float a ball on thick sponge ... not easy at all. If you can get control when performing this stroke ... great I can't.

Pip players and inverted players: If I'm not quite sure of the spin I'm receiving ... I'll twiddle to pips. A double inverted player can't do that and they've alot more sponge on their blade ... the response needs to be more accurate... unless its a super-heavy Euro looping rubber like Almana Sound MAX ... (bit like anti at this point). Playing field here favours the pip player IMO.

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

The ability and even desire to vary and disguise spin on pushes can vary a lot by region as well as the player's character. When i was playing more often and with more people, i tried to get people to practice their pushes, practice getting heavier spin and more variety of spin. I've been to clubs where people had nice pushes, and other clubs where every push was an invitation for a finishing loop. I also don't think it's a double inverted issue. I remember reading an article in which the reporter was observing kong and liu during practice, and liu was vocalizing his annoyance and frustration against kong's pushes. On the other hand i remember a quote from phillipe saive saying he never pushed.

Yeah, when we're in the range where we don't know what spin is on the ball, players (well, non-professionals) can often find an advantage in using pips.

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Equipment: Matsushita PowerDefence, Spin Art 1.9 black, Xiying 979 ox red
Style: American | US Rating: barely 2000

I'm obviously in the wrong clubs ...

Nice or otherwise you can still twiddle and effectively bring the pips into play / invert the spin regardless if it can be looped. All I'm saying is that in short pushing games the pip player is in a strong position, they have the kit to defensively deal with difficult spin and the experience to turn it to their advantage. Some pip players (like me) will focus on this if the looper is weak here.

Loop/kill .. you're assuming the loop will win the point ..contingency if the opponent returns or counter loops? A double inverted player would just keep looping. Particularly with a pip players inverted like 1.5mm Chinese or 'BigSlam' thats not a safe assumption.

E.g. I twiddle backhand loop, good player isn't caught out and blocks (a very good player will counter loop).. if I was a double inverted player I'd reloop - as a pip player I'd twiddle back and chop block... the drop shot could win the point, if it doesn't I'm likely to be facing a push at this point, because I have thought it through in advance there's a contingency.

Gist If I was to loop/ kill or else reloop, reloop, reloop if I did that I'd have two sheets of inverted not a sheet of pips. Likewise if a double inverted player wanted to win points with tricky spin strokes they'd use pips.

Gist2 Anyway soon as a looper goes about the job properly (reloop, reloop, reloop) they're in a position of strength and their spin variation is history (except at v. top flight pro-level, well even Waldner didn't do this till late in his career). Having said that alot of forum members here (pip players) aim to take on the looper at this point in the game (BH vids). I just think if they've a weakness in the short game, look to cut out their forte because a looper is looking to take on a pip player in a power looping game. Is that an unreasonable strategy?

Ok anyway its just my opinion and strategy as a pip player thats all. It might have been expressed too definitively. Pip players after all use a large diversity of styles.

Summary I take the basic point that there is more to a double inverted player than a single minded 'power looper'. However I still think by contrast to pip players who focus on using spin thats an ok generalization.

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

Website www.pipfacts.info

Just want to plug this here (move the thread to the long pips forum is probably how I'd respond ).

Anyway I'm taking a break for now in forum-ing for quite some time. I had a serious relationship breakup recently with my now ex-girl and I'm much more careful about using free time.

I want to try and complete the pips website when I've a bit more spare time. The article I did on frictionless pip strokes on this site readily surfaces on a google search alongside Greg Lett's articles on pips. Google "pip strokes", "frictionless pips" and you'll spot it ... it must be a fairly heavily accessed/ influential article. The article is still relevant with the likes of Phoenix and TTmaster rubber around and many of these strokes whilst expounded by "frictionless" pip players are/ can be used in soft pip play (stroke needs more modification). E.g. "Speedplay turn" or a "cutter" which is a technical term we inverted (there isn't one surprisingly) is still relevant in attacking backspin with Phoenix and I presume TTmaster because of the high spin reversal and the slower ball speed.

Obviously my perspective as a pip player is not universally held, so you'll need to counter loop if you disagree - then the website will be finished in no time

Chau

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

You know, I don't mind the discussion, but I was shocked to see that I posted a new topic which I don't remember doing!

...carry on, guys!

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.

This was separated by a mod.

Probably from this thread

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Chasse Patate

Or maybe they just don't show you their best pushes? If i were playing someone who handled all my pushes with long pips, i would never give them sidespin or screwball pushes to the pips. The only variation would be the degree of spin, and even then i'd probably only alternate between a heavy and a dead push. Obviously you can handle the backspin well, and with your equipment you don't need to know the degree of spin as precisely as if you were going to use inverted and go for a loop kill or flat kill. With pips you're probably not as preoccupied with the footwork either, and can focus more on handling the spin.

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Equipment: Matsushita PowerDefence, Spin Art 1.9 black, Xiying 979 ox red
Style: American | US Rating: barely 2000

It's also possible they're giving their pushes, just not the ones combined with sidespin, as it complicates return matters for them.

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Viscaria. H2 Neo 2.15. Tenergy 05 1.9.